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Post by thanos on Jul 4, 2011 18:19:02 GMT -8
Finally,and after quite many years of collecting it,I completed a box of nice specimens of L.populi - one of Europe's most magnificent butterflies! All of these are collected by me and my father in N.Greece(our last trip a few days ago was the most successful ever,especially for the females..!).In my country the species is very local and hard to find,and its habitat is far from my home(+5 hours driving). The males are of the form tremulae(very reduced to almost absent white marks and bands),while some specimens are of totally blue form,while others are dark brown with blue only on the edges. This is among my top 10 favourite EU butterflies. Thanos Attachments:
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Post by thanos on Jul 4, 2011 23:56:56 GMT -8
Thank you! 5 localities around your village  ?! Lucky collector  . Here it occurs only on 1 mountain,and quite deep in the forest..But,sometimes,I have met big population there(of males).In this june I saw also(for the first time in my life) big population of the females(it was the right timing,and also it seems that this was a very favourable year for this species) ..! Thanos |
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Post by corradocancemi on Jul 5, 2011 6:24:30 GMT -8
Fantastic box of this very nice european species, Thanos! How many cm is this box?
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Post by thanos on Jul 5, 2011 14:52:13 GMT -8
Thank you,Corrado! The dimensions of the box are 50 x 35 cm. It is made by 'balsa' light wood and,instead of glass,it has plexy-glass,so it is good for puting on the walls(very small total weight).
Thanos
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Post by lordpandarus on Jul 5, 2011 18:14:13 GMT -8
Cool, it's the one large European nymphalid I don't have
It's not offered as much as the other ones
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Post by Ascalaphus on Jul 11, 2011 9:31:40 GMT -8
Hi Thanos,
Here in the Swiss alps I have already spent a week trying to photograph L. populi. On the first day a fresh male f. tremulae landed on my shoulder and in the next days I`ve seen both males and females flying around trees. From the early morning until late afternoon I`ve looked for females on the ground on wet places, but in 7 days time I couldn`t find any!
At which time of the day did your females come down from the trees? Do they always choose sunny spots on the ground? Do they also come down to drink with cloudy weather? Hope you can help me!
Regards, Klaas
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Post by thanos on Jul 11, 2011 16:08:44 GMT -8
Hi Klaas,
The females were coming down from the trees and flying close to the forest road (very rarely I've seen a female siting and drinking on the road)and then going up onto the Populus and laying eggs, mainly during the hours 12:00-16:00. And almost exclusively at a small part of the forest road with many Populus tremula. Mainly at sunny spots,but I saw also a few flying at more shadowy and wet spots.
Regards,
Thanos
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runear
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by runear on Jul 12, 2011 0:37:39 GMT -8
Hello Klaas and Thanos, my experience with L.populi females in Norway is exactly as Thanos describes it - so I bet you will find the same patterns in the Swizz alps too. The females seem to be more active, they don't easily settle down, and they often fly between branches and trunks in the forest - the males usually avoids this and fly in open spaces. You might occasionally find them drinking on the road, but not nearly as often as the males. I've even found one on a flower - but this flower smells funky : Filipendula ulmaria ( Meadowsweet). The males seem to keep some kind of territory, and patrol this area frequently - the females I've seen doesn't show this behaviour. Good weather usually means a good chance to see L. populi, even with a partially cloudy sky you can find some. As the sky clouds up the probability for you to see a L. populi close to the ground gets really low.. If you already can see them up in the tree I would try a smelly bait of some kind to get close for a photo. I'm sure all the baits discussed in earlier Apatura iris and A. ilia threads would be interesting to try. I've tried a few of these on L. populi and had some partial success with rotten shrimps. Very messy & smelly stuff, but you can buy a ready made user friendly jar of fermented shrimp paste in Asian food stores. Why anyone would want to eat this I have no idea.. Well, Norwegians eat lutefisk and other nasty stuff so I'll probably keep my mouth shut..  It's such a short season so good luck next year Klaas! Amazing box there Thanos! It takes years and years to gather up a box of that quality... What strikes me most is that all the males are f. tremulae. Is this true for the Greek population of L. populi? Have you ever come across a female f. tremulae? What about Switzerland Klaas? - what is the ratio of f. tremulae on your location? Would be interesting to know the different ratios across Europe and beyond. Anyone seen a f. tremulae from Japan? I've never seen an f. tremulae in Norway - of 300++ specimens. Could f. tremulae be triggered by high temperatures perhaps? Summer temperature in Norway rarely exceeds 30C, and -25C during the winter is not uncommon. Breeding this species would probably answer some questions, but this is a mighty task as I've been told... Rune Attached for comparison: a series of Norwegian Limenitis populi Attachments:
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Post by thanos on Jul 12, 2011 1:32:42 GMT -8
Hi Rune ! , What a great box.. ! These females look really huge - even bigger than the largest of mine I think ! And with wider white bands - very beautiful ! Here in Greece, ALL the males are of the form tremulae. Some have very few white(but no way the amount white of the nominate form,like yours have),and some are almost completely blue-black.Also,some males(and most of the females I've cought -of course the females have also a lot of white-) are completely a bright-electric blue colour -very striking(!),and some are dark brown,with the blue only on the edges. I think that altitude is possibly(?) responsible for the form tremulae(in N.Greece,where L.populi flies,temperatures are usually very low in winter,not rarely -20 or -25,and in summer rarely above 30-35 degrees there,about the same as yours,but they mainly fly at 1000+ meters - I think much higher than at your localities). I have never seen a female f.tremulae here. Only one on ebay -I think last year- and I think it was bred,by an Austrian seller,I tried to win it,but was outbid.Maybe you were the one that won it  ?! I've not seen a f.tremulae from Japan,too. I've seen from China,where I think is the same situation with Greece(the males are tremulae). This that causes me questions is the following: Why the form tremulae of L.populi can be the nominate form of the population of a country,while it seems like an aberration,and while the form iole of Apatura iris is extremely rare in all the populations of this species and never like the f.tremulae of populi(nominate in a country). These 2 species both have white marks and bands,so the f.iole of iris seems to me exactly the same thing with the f.tremulae of populi (very reduced white on both). Thanos |
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runear
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by runear on Jul 12, 2011 7:44:18 GMT -8
Yes Thanos, I have to confess - it was me outbidding you on that occasion.. - an ex ovo female f. tremulae ( still white patches but reduced ) from Thomas Raute in Austria, a really nice guy. Well, you got the 51mm L.cervus female last time so I guess we're even Altitude might be a part of the explanation of course, L. populi is found in Norway from sea level up to 300+ m, sometimes up to 900m ( southern part of Norway, mostly around the Oslofjord ). I suspect there's more to it because I've seen several f. tremulae males from Belgium and other low areas in Europe. Could there be a cline from north to south, 100% nominate to 100% tremulae? Would something like photoperiods be a strong enough trigger? Again, breeding might give us the answer. All the males I've seen from China are tremulae, and from Russia I have mostly seen nominate form ( also in other ssp ). I also have a nominate male from Mongolia ( might be ssp enapius?). Aaah.. It's a jungle out there... I'm missing good literature about L. populi - anything available at all? - so I'm not sure of the different subspecies either: •Limenitis populi populi [Linnaeus, 1758] - Europe •Limenitis populi bukovinensis [Hormuzaki, 1897] - Altai •Limenitis populi enapius [Fruhstorfer, 1908] - Siberia •Limenitis populi ussuriensis [Staudinger, 1887] - NE Russia, Ussuri •Limenitis populi fruhstorferi [Krulikowsky, 1909] - Ural, W Siberia •Limenitis populi szechwanica [Murayama, 1981] - China •Limenitis populi batangensis [Huang, 2001] - Sichuan •Limenitis populi jezoensis [Matsumura, 1919] - Japan •Limenitis populi halasiensis [Huang & Murayama, 1992] - Xinjiang Interesting point you make about iole vs tremulae. Similar characteristics - yet different causes? Wish I knew more about these kinds of variations. My copies of A.S Harmer:"Variation in British Butterflies" and A.D.A. Russwurm "Aberrations of British Butterflies" do not give any answers concerning f. iole. Nice illustrations though.. Sadly this seasons hope for another L. populi female washed away with constant rain.. Can't give up easily if you're going to hunt L. populi - there's always next year.. Rune Attachments:
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Post by thanos on Jul 12, 2011 19:48:51 GMT -8
So congrats for having this very rare and nice female f.tremulae,Rune! It's the only one I've seen with so reduced white bands. In contrast,I have a male of the ssp.ussuriensis from Russia,won on ebay from a collector from Poland,with too much white and very wide hindwing bands which are also of different shape! I've never seen another specimen like this.The seller told me that he has it from an exchange and that when he saw it,his glasses fell down from surprise ! Yes,I got 1 of the 51mm females of Lucanus cervus akbesianus today! It has really unbelievable size for a female ! And I say 1,cause due to a mistake,I will get also in a few days the second 51mm female that this seller put on ebay (of course I sent him money for the second female,too). I agree that there is more to this.Possibly the pigment melanin depends on genetic factors for each population(f.tremulae of populi) or individual(f.iole of iris,or f.nigrina of L.camilla), and/or on climatic conditions due to altitude(temperature,moisture). I'm not sure for the validity of all these ssp. Anyway,yours and mine are p.populi. About the washed away female populi by rain..,you remind me an old collector here in Greece,who has his only female,collected by this way  . Many times I have met rain at the habitat of populi,but never was so lucky with such weather so the rain to bring down a female for me  (all specimens I've collected with good weather). But in this june,I was something more than lucky with the females..It was like a dream.. ! Thanos |
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Post by leptidea on Jul 13, 2011 1:24:40 GMT -8
Eudoxius Freiherr von Hormuzaki (n. 29 septembrie 1812, Cernăuca, Cernăuţi - d. 29 ianuarie/10 februarie 1874, Cernăuţi) it is born in Romania, even that at the time, the region was ocuppied by the Austrian Impire. So the name "bukovinensis" come from a region from Romania where even today the name remain : Bukovina.
So the ssp Limenitis populi bukovinensis was discribed from this region. The posibility that this ssp to be from Altai (...) is quite zero.
leptidea
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runear
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by runear on Jul 13, 2011 3:00:12 GMT -8
My info from wikipedia is clearly wrong(!) - it didn't come as a shock to me... Thanks leptidea! A few more searches shows a more logical distribution: partly Western Europe, Carpathians, Western Ukraine and Moldova ssp enapius would cover Altai range, probably were the wrong info originates.. Also it looks like ssp fruhstorferi is invalid/synonym to other ssp Revised list: •Limenitis populi populi [Linnaeus, 1758] - most of Europe •Limenitis populi bukovinensis [Hormuzaki, 1897] - Carpathians, W Ukraine, Moldova •Limenitis populi enapius [Fruhstorfer, 1908] - Russia: Siberia, Transbaikalia, Altais, Sayan •Limenitis populi ussuriensis [Staudinger, 1887] - NE Russia: Amur and Ussuri regions •Limenitis populi szechwanica [Murayama, 1981] - China: Sichuan, Shaanxi, Henan •Limenitis populi batangensis [Huang, 2001] - China: Batang (Sichuan-Tibet border) •Limenitis populi halasiensis [Huang & Murayama, 1992] - China: Altai, Xinjiang •Limenitis populi jezoensis [Matsumura, 1919] - Japan I would love to see a photo of your male ussuriensis Thanos Is there any other photos available of other forms or aberrations of L. populi - such as extreme white bands? Below is a comparison of two males from last season in Norway. I got a 50mm L. cervus akbesianus female to follow the 86mm male - at a nice price, so I'm happy. As are you I guess Would love to see this creature in nature. Southern Sweden would be the closest place - not too far away, a few hours to drive. Your fantastic trip this year seems almost unreal.. What a timing! - especially with a 5 hour drive My best localities are all within half an hour drive, but the real problem is the weather. Twice the normal amount of rain and often strong winds... No females seen this season, but the males were flying on those rare days with good weather. During 4 days I counted atleast 50 males. Almost every male I saw had damaged wings, probably because of all the bad weather & hungry birds.. Rune Attachments:
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Post by thanos on Jul 15, 2011 14:04:46 GMT -8
Here is the extreme white on a male,Rune... (my aberrant male L.populi ussuriensis). Thanos Attachments:
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robert61
Full Member
Posts: 184
Country: GERMANY
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Post by robert61 on Jul 16, 2011 6:17:47 GMT -8
the lower male shows aberrant hindwings...........from Austria Robert Attachments:
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?! Lucky collector 
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?!
. Many times I have met rain at the habitat of populi,but never was so lucky with such weather so the rain to bring down a female for me 
(all specimens I've collected with good weather). But in this june,I was something more than lucky with the females..It was like a dream.. 
